For this interview I’m joined by Jo Shanahan from DVE Solutions and we’re talking about business process mapping and improvement. This is a very interesting topic and I think all businesses could get something out of this interview.
- Who can benefit from business process improvement?
- What are some signs that business owners can look for to know that they need to make some process improvements?
- Some typical processes that businesses struggle with
- Tips for creating new processes
- The role of technology in processes
- DVE Solutions website
- Jo on LinkedIn
- Jo on Facebook
- DVE Business Solutions on Facebook
- DVE Solutions on LinkedIn
- Lucid Chart
Transcription[spoiler title=”Click to reveal/hide the transcription”]
Nick: Good day everyone, my name is Nick Morris. Welcome back to Adelaide business. For this interview, I’m joined by Jo Shanahan from DVE solutions. Good day Jo, welcome to the show.
Jo Shanahan: Thanks Nick, thanks for having me.
Nick: The topic we are talking today is sort of like what Jo specializes in, which is business process improvement. Before we get into that Jo, how about you tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about DVE?
Jo Shanahan: Yes, sure. So, I come from manufacturing background, I’m a mechanical engineer and I worked at GM Holden in the manufacturing plant. So, what I’ve basically done with DVE is taking all the systems and processes knowledge that I learned in manufacturing, which is effectively the best in the world, and I’ve been bringing that to other businesses, small and large around the country and enabling them to work more effectively and efficiently in a manner that is used quite widely in manufacturing but not so much in offices which is basically where we work.
Nick: Cool, cool
Jo Shanahan: And do they, sorry…
Nick: Yeah, I was gonna say you have an office both in Adelaide and Sydney, is that right?
Jo Shanahan: Yeah. So, we are based in Adelaide, we have an office in Sydney, we work all around the country and DVE Business Solutions basically takes that knowledge and we specialize in process improvement, custom technology and training. So, we take all of the information that we gather from the business, we come up with some recommendations that can provide a full holistic solutions for the business or we can just provide small improvements and advice around process improvement or technology or a combination of both.
Nick: Cool, sounds interesting. Who can benefit from this services that you provide, is it small businesses, big businesses, is it particular industry, B to C, B to B?
Jo Shanahan: We’ve worked across O industries, there’s no particular industry that we worked, with O businesses, the knowledge of the business and their industry is where they specialize, where we specialize is just how to improve processes. In terms of the size of the business, typically you’re high growth businesses or largely established would be the main areas where what we can offer is valuable and where you’re trying to actually get more out of less resources, where you try and be more effective with your time or do things better, for example if you’re getting ready to scale or if you have scaled or maybe assistance and processes haven’t caught up with you yet.
Nick: Cool, what are some signs that perhaps businesses can be on the look out for, to know that they have the ability to improve systems or is it something that almost every business has some way they can improve?
Jo Shanahan: I think most businesses have some way they can improve. I guess some of the sort of things we hear our clients say where we know that we can help them is, you might not know exactly what is wrong, but you’re just thinking there must be a better way. So, it’s gonna be a better way to do this, like I don’t know what it is, but there’s gonna be something different. That’s where we can come in and help you work out what it is, or it might be that you actually have specific goals for your business, growth goals. To achieve those goals you’re gonna have to invest some sort of resource, in terms of perhaps, of people power or finances and instead of wanting to do that, you want to look at doing things more effectively.
The other key indicators are often, just typical things like duplicate data entry. If you’re finding yourself or your team copying and pasting the same data multiple times, that’s usually an indication that you can do something better, or if the communication between team members isn’t effective, so you know, the whole left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing and people aren’t communicating and getting frustrated, that can also be a sign of process improvement being able to be effective and helping with that.
Nick: Cool, that sounds good. It sort of leads into my next question, which is, the clients usually have a specific processes in mind when they come in and bring you in, or is it more about asking you what can be improved?
Jo Shanahan: Yeah, that’s a good question. It sort of comes in both directions. Sometimes there might be a call process that people actually just know this is a really important process and we’re not doing well enough and we want specific help on that one and in that case we will come in and work with that one specifically or as I said before, there might just be like, something is not right here, there is got to be a better way. Actually, we don’t even know where to start, we’re feeling completely overwhelmed, perhaps you could you could just come in and review our whole team and all our processes and provide us some recommendations on what processes would be, would give us that 80% gain with that 20% effort.
Nick: Great! Another question I had was, how wired reaching your, are your recommendations gonna be, for instance would you, if someone’s got some support system maybe like a phone support system and maybe you see an opportunity to completely get rid of that system and bring in something else, like maybe an online system or something like that. Would you make those sorts of recommendations or are you more about just improving that phone support system?
Jo Shanahan: We work on a couple of different levels again and it depends largely on what the client wants, so if the client say to us, we just want some immediate fixes that we can implement tomorrow, then obviously that affects the level of recommendation that we give. Some clients say look, we just want a big blue sky picture of what’s possible for us in the next year or two and then that guides some of those bigger decisions or and probably more often than not, a little bit of a combination of both.
So, some recommendations on what you can just do now that might be quick and easy and actually what you could be moving towards in the future. So, for example going back to that duplicate data entry example, if someone in the team or yourself spending multiple hours in a week manipulating data in a report that has to get submitted regularly, we might create an advance excel solution that just in a click or two, lets you provide that entire report in a format that you need, so, you might save an hour or two a week in a year.
That adds up significantly but at the other end of the spectrum, we might say, well look, that’s an internal solution but what you really need is a full management system. So, a customized system that’s built around your processes that is entirely customized to your needs and you and your team have input into and that is gonna be a fairly large project and that might go for a year or more in different stages. So, yeah there’s this combination of immediate benefits and then long term strategic benefits and we try wherever possible to give a bit of balance of both but sometimes clients have a bit of a focus on what direction they want to go in.
Nick: Great! Are there any typical processes that perhaps you could give us examples of now that many businesses might face, maybe give us a light bulb moment where we think maybe this could help me in some ways, maybe typical processes that can be improved.
Jo Shanahan: Yeah, we see, what I try to get businesses mapping out is their core business process. So, there should be one process an over arching one, not a little specific one but one process that is actually the core of what the business is about and that should involve effectively getting some business in and delivering a product or service to clients and then, that’s a really good starting point. So, often clients have trouble in people, especially business owners, especially when you’ve been going through a rough phase.
It just feels really over whelming, you know if you want to scout you’ve got to setup your processes effectively but you’re actually not sure where to start. So, one of the main pieces of advice I always try to give is start with that co-business process and map that out at a fairly high level and then start sliding in other processes around it. Now, if you’ve got processes that you say that really aligns to our core business process, the question should really be asked why you doing it? So, if you’re doing work that is not assisting or enhancing or facilitating your core business process, you should be questioning why are you doing it. So, that exercise in itself is a really useful exercise just from a getting started point of view but typically, more generic processes are sort of your lead generation, your sales process, the specific processes that are drilling down a little bit further into how you actually deliver your specific product or service and how the customer interacts and works with that and how the different team members in your team interacts with that. Then of course, you’ve got, like your billing processes and so a lot of systems like for example Zero, people we work a lot on processes, where they use to use mild, they wanted transition to Zero, that actually isn’t a system change.
You have to change a lot of processes to introduce an entirely different online system that is gonna make you work differently and more effective. So, we work with a lot of people who are transitioning to a new type of system and help them to move their processes along with that because I think that’s often under estimated, the amount of work that can actually take. So, yeah billing, receipting, finalizing your customer relationship management, all of those sorts of generic processes pretty much every business has and some are fairly standard but a lot of them are going to be tailored to how the business runs and the vision of the business itself.
Nick: Great! And you mentioned technology in there and a little bit with Zero, I guess that’s an interesting point in that, we’re saying lots of technologies coming in, in different sort of parts of how a business runs, many of them disruptive and made them making process that have existed for a while, completely automated. Is technology a big part of what you do or is it only a part when it’s necessary? How big a part does technology play in the process improvement?
Jo Shanahan: Yeah, we work very, very closely with technology. We develop our own systems flow so we have a few different areas. We always try, if technology cannot enhance a process we’ll always try and recommend a technology solution. I mean that’s the way that the world is going and that’s what we do ourselves as well. We really believe in practicing what we preach, so if a client or a business didn’t want to have technology aspects or didn’t want to consider technology, then that’s perfectly fine as well. We just go and look up processes.
One of the things we do differently in our process mapping is we actually incorporate a systems online and we always show with our processes the different touch points of the process and the people to the system. So, that is one of the things we do a little bit differently to traditional process improvement and that’s because we really believe that processes are driven by systems these days and systems processes drive the need for systems as well, so it works in reverse as well. So, we always make sure that we consider processes and systems together.
That’s one of the advantages of DVE and how we actually do this quite differently to a lot of other businesses and so, in addition to the process improvement aspect, we can often do reviews and we source what systems are available. We might do a review on a system that a client’s looking at and compare it to what the needs of our business and the people in the business, to make sure that you are not going to go and implement a system that is actually not fit for purpose or we might complete the design built from scratch and customize systems.
So, it might be advanced excel or it might be a web-based, database with work flowing portal technology and things like that, and again that depends on what the client needs and so if there was something off the shelf or propriety system or a cloud based system that suited the client’s needs, we would always recommend that they’d go in that direction but if they find themselves in a situation where they’re changing their processes to suit a system in a manner that’s not making them effective, then we never recommend that.
So, if that’s happening and that’s a significant impact on the business, we’d always say that you should be looking at your own system. If your processes are having to response too much to a system, then get a system that you can actually build around your ideal processes.
Nick: Cool, yeah. That’s really interesting. I guess one follow-on question from that I had was, do you ever find that businesses might sort of jumped on the technology bandwagon and gone a bit far and adopted some technology which perhaps, it would be better for them to step back and make that more of a job that a person could do or anything like that? Do you think people a little bit gotten on with the technology or is technology almost always is the best way to go?
Jo Shanahan: I think that technology is often almost always the best way to go, however what I see happen a lot is people get so excited about a new system that they forget how much work it actually takes in implementing the system and so they just decide, ahh, we want the system, it would be great, let’s implement it and then the change management around the processes and the people that are going to have to interact to that system, that’s not managed very well. So, an implementation, a successful implementation actually takes quite a bit of planning and work and that’s something where businesses often fall down.
They don’t realize that or they realize that a little bit too late and they were already into the system. So, if you go and look out a system it’s really important to do the homework upfront. Make sure it is the right system for what you need because it might be easy, this all looks great, we will implement this, but actually, once you’ve done all this work to implement a system, you don’t want to change it to another one. You’re have to think about you’ve got all your data in it, you don’t want to have data migration all this sort of thing. So, once you’ve got one, you want to have it for a while. So, it’s really important to do that homework beforehand to make sure that it does actually match the business and people’s needs, not only now but because things are changing so quickly, you need to be thinking about whether it’s going to be able to score with the business too. So, often you see small businesses particularly, they might get a free version of a software or something and they thought I’ll just start with this and then they become so ingrained in its use and all their data’s in there and it actually becomes quite a big job to change.
So, I always try to get people just thinking about that a little bit earlier on in the piece and then other aspect of that is the, still around the implementation, is people feel that there is a pain point in their business and especially because there are so many solutions, it is very easy just go and try to solve that pain point by finding a new system. I’m not saying that these things are going to solve all their problems but often if the problem is actually [Audio breaks 00:15:26] the root cause of the problem and then looking at actually managing that system and the implementation around it.
Nick: Cool, interesting, yeah. It it’s an interesting thing about technology. I think that’s something that people should definitely take note of because obviously, it’s changing and then your thoughts there on making sure that you do your research beforehand. I think that thing really makes sense, first on implementation, do you help with the training and the implementation side of things as well, for the business, it seems like that’s a pretty big part would you say?
Jo Shanahan: Yeah we do. So again it depends on what the client has in terms of resources and needs as well but often as I’ve said, that is often the largest part of any of these projects and the make or break of a system is around the implementation and often very largely the communication around the engagement of the people who are going to be using it. So, if you’re not communicating the changes effectively, there can be a perception that it’s a negative implementation when in actual fact, it’s not the system that is the problem, it’s just the way it was implemented.
So, we always try where possible to assist with the implementation and when we, certainly when we do custom systems, we always try to assist with the engagement of the users and the communication around that but we have we, also have been hired on many occasions to implement especially larger systems in larger businesses and actually work on implementation project and get the people, the different people that are going to be [Audio breaks 00:17:03] talking to each other and engaged in the project.
So, it is more successful and the user uptake is of a higher degree than if you just throw out and say this is what you’re using now and then, in terms of that, we’ll also do quite a bit of training. How we provide training obviously, if we build a system we provide quite a lot of training around how to use it to make sure people understand that. I have done a lot of work around setting video user guides and that sort of thing and we also help to facilitate training with experts in other systems if that’s required as well, depending on the project.
Nick: Cool, yeah, that definitely seems like an important step as well because I guess especially in an established businesses where there had been a process for a while, everyone’s gonna be probably against change and there could be some push back there. So, I think getting them involved in the process and making sure you get that training done is a good thing. If someone’s at to the point where creating a new process for their business, do you have any sort of tips for how they can try and make sure it’s as efficient as it can be from the get go?
Jo Shanahan: Yeah. So, the first thing in terms of selecting the process as I’ve said previously, is to make sure the starting point is your core business process and making sure that you’re focusing as much as possible. So, 20% of the processes, you are going to make 80% of the difference. So, that is going to be the core business process and then the main ones that lead into and out of that, so, always start with those. In terms of the individual process, the best thing to think about is be really clear on where it starts and where it finishes.
You can make anything into a process if you really want to, so, just provide yourself some definition and framework so a good solid starting point and finishing point and then knowing that you want to actually map out what goes in between those points is really important. One of the things we do, which I would suggest is a really good thing to do, is adding in a system swim line and showing the systems touch points. So, don’t just look at the people, in this day and age, people are interacting with systems all the time, so if you are going to be knowing that is a reality, then actually set it up so that’s what shows as well.
So, you can show a systems swim line if you’re using swim lines for your process mapping and you can just flow the processes into the systems swim line as well and basically, what that does is if you went along the system line, you would see all the touch points that that process has with the particular system and that is a really useful bit of information. The other thing that’s important is, as you’re mapping each step, be very clear that in each, when you think of a process, make sure it is actually one process, so a lot of times people put a whole bunch of things in what they consider one process and if you look at it, it’s actually a few different steps.
If it is a few different steps, map it out as a few different steps, but one other thing that can be difficult is to understand the level of the map that you are gonna be creating so you want the level of information or the detail that you’re going into the map to be fairly consistent. So, you are to do a really high level map which might be client calls with an inquiry, then they get passed over here and then they get sent to this person and then they get an email or you might go into, that’s where we write a mid level map. You might be a really, really high level, which just outlines at a high level, how general client communication occurs in the business or you might go into a deeper level, which includes things like actually how you do some of those steps and each of the people that might be definitely involved. So, at the beginning of the process, you really want to think about the start and finish points but also the level to which you want to be mapping it.
You want a lot of little detail and you want to know every little step and someone new coming into the business needs to be able to follow every bit of it and learn from it or actually you just try to demonstrate where people are involved and where systems are involved and what the basic flow is. So, have an understanding of that because we often see people mix the two up and that’s when it gets really confusing for people. The other thing to think about is making sure that, along the way you’re considering the decisions that have to be made.
So, particularly a business owner or someone who has very intimate of the knowledge of the processes, mapping it themselves, they don’t show it as a decision, so they kind of make them as they’re mapping it, so they don’t show it as a decision point but if you had someone new doing it, they might get stuck and they might go ahh, where there’s actually two options here, what one do I pick? The business owner or the person who knows it really well would be like, well, that’s obvious, you pick this one for this reason but you’ve got to write a map if you don’t know that.
So, just always try and think where are their decisions, where are the options along here and make sure you show those and then the other main thing is the and then this comes from my manufacturing background is really asking why, so in terms of the next stage, the first stage is you map it all out, the second stage you start improving it. If you want to improve something, you need to be asking why are we doing this, so always questioning it. So, if you’re mapping this out and you notice that you’re updating the same spreadsheet three times, in a process it spans over, say a day or two, just be asking why are we doing this three times?
Do we need to do this three times? Maybe we do and that’s okay, or maybe no and that’s actually ridiculous and you’re spending ten people’s time four times a week doing three updates when it could be done in one, so, and then that could be a really significant saving. So, that’s how you start to find those improvements but the first thing to do is map how it is now. I guess that’s actually over arching all of those individual tips on how to map. As you go forward to do some mapping exercises, you need to map how it is now first.
You need to understand how it currently works and then work on improving it. Often, people get excited by the mapping and they start improving it straight away and its better off not doing that. You’re better off just mapping how it is now, getting some clarity around what the actual current situation is and then starting to ask the questions and ask why and then map out how it could be and start trying how it could be. Then, that’s how you develop a culture of continuous improvement. You want to be constantly improving these processes and you’ve got, you need a starting point to be able to improve from.
Nick: Awesome. Thanks very much for all those tips Jo. We are gonna go into some, a little bit of an example with some mapping and stuff in a minute but before we get started I just want to say thanks for coming on the show. It’s been really interesting getting your insights on process mapping, which I think is probably a topic that a lot of people know is important but they probably don’t, you know make it a point to think about it on a day to day basis like you guys do. So, it’s good to hear your thoughts on that. If people want to find out a bit more about DVE, what’s the best place they can do that?
Jo Shanahan: They can go to our website at dvesolutions.com.au or you can email us at firstname.lastname@example.org as well. So, yeah feel free to ask any questions, or get more a bit more feedback on how to do some process mapping [Audio breaks 00:24:51] or any sort of technology, implementation and changes like that.
Nick: Cool, well, we’ll put the links and the information up on the website, which is adelaidebusiness.net.au and you can go check out Jo’s stuff over there. Now, we’re just gonna go into a little bit of example, get Jo to share her strategy there and try and go through a typical sales process that, or an example sales process a business might have and how to sort of map that out and so go through the process a little bit. So, take it away Jo at your end, so we can get an example.
Jo Shanahan: Okay.
Jo Shanahan: Can you see my screen there?
Nick: Yep, so we get your screen up!
Jo Shanahan: Okay, beautiful. Now, we typically use Microsoft Video, but for the purpose of this very simple example, I thought we’d just use Lucid Chart which is an online software, which enables you to do process mapping. I thought it might be a little bit more accessible to you people viewing and so it might be a little bit easier. So, alright, first things first. We start with the starting point. This is the terminator, it’s the starting point of any process map. We’ll have one at the start and one at the end. So, remember in my tips I said to think about the starting and finishing point of the process before you get going mapping. So, what process did you want to do today Nick?
Nick: So, I thought like a sales process, might be something that a lot of businesses can relate to. Yeah, let’s start with something like a sales process.
Jo Shanahan: Okay, beautiful! And so what would you consider a starting point?
Nick: I guess for a of lot of, with my clients in particular, where we’re talking about web marketing, I guess a lot of, starting point would be the client, potential customer goes to the website, fills in a form, so, I guess it’s a lead capture is for probably the first touch point.
Jo Shanahan: Okay, so lead then comes in, we’ll be a bit generic. It could come in any number of ways. So, what we actually, what we could do here, oh I’m getting excited, process mapping makes me get excited. So, what do we want to call, what do we want to call the final, what’s the end point of this process, the sales process, would it be the sale?
Nick: Yeah, I guess it would be the sale, yeah.
Jo Shanahan: So, you can see there where the end point can vary, like it can go on forever. We can make the end of the sales process the end of the project you know. So, it’s really important that we understand what we want the beginning and the end of the process to be, so, we’ve got somewhere to start. So, I’m just gonna shove this down in this bottom corner, we keep in mind that that’s our end point.
We are gonna just map a little bit in between. So, now you mentioned before that leads come in, in a variety of ways, before we spoke a little bit about how we forget about the decisions, this could be a potential decision point. So, if a lead comes in via the website, via in person, would our process be different or would it be the same, are we treating all leads the same or are we treating them differently, depending on how they come in?
Nick: I suppose it will be better to treat them differently because you maybe, if it’s a lead through a website, then you’re probably gonna, then making it time to go follow-up with them, whereas, if they’ve called in directly, you have to speak with them while they’re there in person. It’s perhaps a little bit of different process as well.
Jo Shanahan: Okay, sure, alright we’re gonna put a decision point in, then. So, the decision here is method of contact. So, we’re just putting that next to the box here. Now, you want to make sure, I’ll just do a few tips as I roll through this. You want to make sure that you only have one of these arrows coming out of each shape. If there’s more than one arrow coming out of a shape, then it’s probably a decision and therefore, the shape should be a decision.
So, you can have more than one arrow coming out of this diamond decision shape here, but not out of any of the others, sort of one of the rules. Alright so, we’re gonna say for this one here, we’re gonna say method of contact online. Let’s say that could be email or website, and then, oops and then we’re gonna have another method here, which is, what was the other one you said? In person.
Jo Shanahan: So, you can see here how we’re kind of moving with the process, trying to get rid of that, odd arrow there. We are moving the process, it’s gonna be slightly different, depending on how we determine our actions or activities are going to be based on whether they came through online or in person. So, what would our next step be if they came through online?
Nick: I guess it will be probably to give them a call or an email depending on, I guess the way you want to do it, yeah to ask them about their, what their needs are and to present your solution as their solution, try to sell them.
Jo Shanahan: So, we’re gonna say follow up [Audio break 00:30:58] and this one here, in person. What might we do differently if we saw them straight away in person? Would we go straight into that? Contacting them about, like is the only extra step this follow-up via email, phone call?
Jo Shanahan: Like if they come in, in person, we go straight into that conversation?
Nick: Yeah, I think so, you’d go straight to the conversation if you, if they are in person.
Jo Shanahan: Okay so, we might say we’re gonna discuss opportunities, so what we’re gonna do here is we’re just gonna move this over here, and we’re gonna show that the follow up via email phone call, fades into this discuss opportunities, so oops. I don’t need that. I did get excited. There we go. So, what we’ve got here is we’re showing that there is an extra step when they come in online, which is that we have to do some activity to follow-up with them. Obviously, if they come in, in person, we can just discuss opportunities straight away, but if they’ve come through online, we have to follow-up with them and then we can discuss opportunities.
So, then there might be another decision point, which is like are they interested in working with us perhaps, and that’s probably gonna be a flat, or there might be a yes or no but there might be a not now but later, please? So, we put three in this, put a yes and a no and we’ll put a not right now, and what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna send the not right now off to, that’s not the shape I wanted. We’re gonna send that off to the, I don’t know, CRM, add in CRM, and then the CRM process take care of that. So, you know, once they’ve been added in the CRM, they’re gonna be contacted regularly again, and you’re gonna be asked that “Are you interested?” question more than once?
If they are not interested, actually we might even do the same thing, we might add them into the CRM as well and that might be the end of the show for this particular process. If they are interested, then we might have some, I don’t know, scoping conversations, and then that might be the end of that. We might get the sale, that might be the sale after that, it’s quite simplistic here for this example. So, you can see there how, just asking those questions enables you to map out very simply what might feel like a really complicated process and this also shows where I spoke about the different levels. So, this is fairly simplistic, but I’ve actually made a decision not to take into too deep level.
So, this is scoping conversations for example, that could be hugely complicated and there might be an entire process around that or multiple processes around that and that’s fine but we’ve made a decision for this map that we don’t, we want it to look to be simple and easy to follow. So, we’re just gonna leave it that. We might have other maps or documentation, work instructions, procedural items, things like that, that we might link from this directly to those, so that we can get more information, but for now, for the purpose for the level that we want this map to be at, we’ve kept that sort of level. So, that is basically a very simple sales process map and how we would do it.
Nick: Awesome Jo! Thanks for walking us through that example. I think it’s really crystallizes what we’ve been talking about being able to see the shapes and being able to see how the mapping works. What was this program that you did this in encode? Is this something that people could access too?
Jo Shanahan: Yes! This is called Lucid Chart, it’s lucidchart.com and it’s a software as a service. I’ve used it a bit, it’s really good and it’s cloud based. So, you can have a couple of people using it once and things like that. It’s very accessible and it doesn’t have quite the level of complexity, that Vizio has at the moment and so, we typically used Vizio for our clients, but it’s something that I’d quite like to play with and I think for people who just want to get started mapping their own processes, it’s a really quick and easy way to go without having to purchase software and things like that. So, and for the purpose of most people’s processes, this would be more than suitable to cover what you need.
Nick: Awesome, so I’ll put a link to that in the show notes as well. That brings us to the end of this interview. Thanks again very much for joining us Jo, it’s been really interesting having you and having you go through this stuff with us.
Jo Shanahan: Excellent. Thanks very much for having me, and hopefully I’ve been able to teach you a few things.
Nick: Definitely, yeah! Processes it’s a thing in my business at this point in time as well, so, it’s definitely given me a lot to think about. What was your website again, for people who want to go check you out?
Jo Shanahan: It’s dvesolutions.com.au
Nick: So everyone go check out Jo’s website there and we will see you next time. See you!
Nick Morris is the founder of Adelaide Experts and an SEO Consultant at Web Marketing Adelaide.