Archives for July 2012


Ep#1: Social Media Marketing

For our first episode this week we have a great interview with Rubina Carlson, a social media marketing (SMM) expert from Adelaide.

The interview was so long and detailed (over an hour) that I decided to split it into two parts, the second part will be featured in episode 3.

Discussed in this episode;

  • What makes social media a good marketing channel
  • Which industries SMM is good for
  • Blogging
  • How to provide value
  • Driving traffic to your website
  • Building a community
  • Like buttons vs Plugins


This is only our first episode so I would love to hear your feedback about things you liked and didn’t like and how we can make the podcast better.

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Nick: Welcome to Episode 1 of the Web Marketing Adelaide Podcast. I’m your host, Nick Morris and today, we’re talking about social media marketing. We’ve got a great interview with Rubina Carlson. We’ve recorded this interview at Jam The Bistro, a funky little coffee shop on Wright Street in the City but unfortunately there’s quite a bit of background noise, which makes the interview hard to hear at times, so I apologize for that.

It was a really good interview and it went for over an hour so I decided to split it up into 2 parts. The second half will be released in Episode 3 in a couple of weeks. So, here’s the interview.

Welcome back to Web Marketing Adelaide. Today we’re talking with Rubina Carlson, social media marketing expert in Adelaide.

Rubina: Hi Nick, how are you doing?

Nick: We’re going to be covering some stuff about social media marketing for small businesses and then talk a little bit about a Social Media Marketing Tafe Course, [Inaudible 00:01:21] and then we’ll finish off with talking about MICON Mob Project. So let’s just get started by perhaps you telling us a little bit about yourself and the kind of stuff that you do.

Rubina: Yep. Well I actually have a background in community radio and that’s where I kind of started. I then moved into writing online for Buzz Cuts, which is a program run by Express Media and writing reviews, all and all that sorts of things for shows, and french shows and all that kind of stuff and that I something I carried through until now. And then I kind of moved from there with a couple of other online publications, video channels, somewhat flipped through PDF type books and all that sort of stuff and then, kind of moved in to the social media space which is where I currently am. And yes, it’s been a gradual kind of process for me and now I’ve lots of clients and that sort of thing in my consultancy. And also I’ve been teaching a Social Media short course at Tafe for business, with a business class, as well as being heavily involved in the [Inaudible 00:02:37] committee and also the, I guess, social media sphere of Adelaide has got me on the course.

Nick: Well that’s where I met you, through the Net Square Project.

Rubina: The Net Square Project. Yep.

Nick: I was thinking of starting with some questions about some social media marketing directed at small businesses, sort of, business relationship. So, what is it about social media that makes it a good marketing idea for small businesses?

Rubina: I think that it’s relatively, you’ve got the barriers to entry of selling mode, having said that it can be a good thing and a bad thing at the same time. Seeing that the barriers are pretty low to get in let’s say there’s not much about cost involved to initially get yourself going, to set up a page is free, your Facebook page or Four Square page or Twitter accounts and all that sort of stuff and Google Plus too, as you mentioned. That part of it is relatively easy to do, the harder part comes when you’re actually trying to build a community.

But that’s not say though that there aren’t different levels, or different ways you can approach social media as a small business. For example you might be pretty time pulled and as a result you might decide, well I just want people to be able to reference me, for example if I am, if they’re talking about me on social media. So, that means just claiming your Facebook pages or places page or your Four Square page and then just kind of making sure that all your contact details are up to date.

If you’re a restaurant, put your current menu up, and that kind of thing and your engagement levels are going to be very low for sure but at least, if people come across you or they’re sitting in your restaurant or they’re wanting to share information about your brand, at least they’re able to do that and reference you and share that with their networks. The onus, of course is then with your consumer to recognize your brand first off, and also to recognize that you’re actually on a particular network so that they know they can reference you when referring to you.

So, I guess it’s an entry level point but I think most small businesses can jump in. If you’re really wanting to push it as a marketing channel, you definitely need to invest the time, and I think that that’s one thing about social that probably turns off a lot of small businesses is that it can be quite time intensive and the results, the return on investment over time can be difficult to kind of track it’s full financial outcome to sales and that kind of thing, and, so I think you know, initially I think it’s right if they jump on then just turn their pages and go for an informative approach.

But then of course if they’re wanting to see some more attraction from it, they’re going to have to invest the time and become a part of the community, whether it’s within Adelaide or within moms groups or within not-for-profit sector or maybe it’s something to do with the politics or something like that or new outlets or whatever that might be. So it’s an interesting way to go, absolutely.

Nick: Alright. So, is this something that every kind of business can benefit from? Or are there certain businesses or the …

Rubina: I think it really depends, I think it comes with a few factors. I think it depends what industry you’re in. While teaching is a social media short course, it tends to come into contact with a number of different industries, and for some of them, social really isn’t the answer and they’ve come to the courses and I feel pretty rotten about it. So, I then look at the situation and say, look, you have the social, I guess looking at the broader defined terms in sort of any site where you can interact with other people and brands and whatnot, would be okay for them. Maybe Facebook, perhaps set blame perhaps not, or Twitter perhaps not, but perhaps the idea of blogging, which is kind of tied into social, because without blogging, you really don’t have much content to share apart from here’s a photo of me, or here’s a photo of this happening or a photo this.

So we kind of then look at blogging and blogging strategies and how they might be able to help their current customer base and then perhaps their potential customers base and that might be writing a blog that’s tech support focused or it might be a blog about, you know, what to do when something goes wrong or whatever, or it might just be a blog of the daily activities in the office or weekly activities in the office depending on the timeframe or to the best he’s doing it.

Social can have a place, I think, in many different industries and particularly ones where we’re already quite social, which you’re looking at hospitality, you’re looking at leisure, and tourism, all those kinds of areas. It’s a very easy fit for social to work in, social media, I should say but perhaps some of the other industries where perhaps where there are business to business service or perhaps they’re a, they could be in manufacturing or they might be something else entirely. It is a little bit more of a challenge to see how social can work in, how social media can work in.

And then of course you’ve got the education sector and all that kind of things, and that’s a different layer again. I think that there is room for it in most industries but some industries are probably better off just practicing on their websites and make sure that all their information is up to date and yeah, looking at their existing communication channels with their current customers have they go and get new customers.

If they’re, for example, advertising in a, say they’re HRM or something like that, like the recruitment firm, they might be advertising in Leader, which is the leading human resources magazine instead of going heavily on the social to promote their particular recruitment company. They might decide, we’ll just advertise online with the same publication or something like that, [Inaudible 00:09:02] do existing things. So, there are other things to consider in your sort of overall digital marketing, strategy but then if you’re looking at a HR, then you’re probably looking at people who are very heavily using LinkedIn to recruit to actually find these people for these jobs. There’s a lot of different ways you can social that aren’t limited to marketing but this is a marketing Podcast, so I’ll bring it back around.

Nick: Yeah, definitely. Cool. I’ve always had this idea with Social Media Marketing that you should try and find a way of offering unique value when you’re going into a strategy. Is that something you would agree with or…?

Rubina: I think so. I think that you need to provide something of value, whether it’s unique or not, unique is better obviously because you might get some traction in other areas or other kit networks that you put it into because you’re doing something different to everybody else but the important thing to remember is that, because going back to the view of the barrier to entering social media makes it low, and any man’s job can jump on and do something. Oh, I’m a hobby photographer, I can just jump on this and I’m a professional photographer before you know, I do wedding stuff and design but there’s a lot of content out there. So, to be sure that your content or any of your marketing is going to stand apart, you’ve got to make sure that you’re at least writing something of value to the consumer, or the targeted consumers and not your current ones.

Nick: What would be some examples of that kind of value to different businesses?

Rubina: I’m thinking, just trying to think now. Say for example, take the wine industry actually, that’s a good example. The social media sites that’s currently in, the Australian Wineries have saturated social media sites. There are heaps, pretty much every winery you can think of has a social media page, either a Facebook account or a Twitter account or a YouTube channel, whatever and the way that they, because there are so many, the ones that seem to get more engagement on the sites are the ones who are providing better content, which means they take it like a nice, a good high-depth video down in their cellars and this is what we have found, uncovered from when we were renovating or something like that. Or they’re the ones providing photos of, we did a vertical tasting today of say their top wine for example, which might retail for a $100 a bottle for each vintage when it comes out and they might do a vertical testing for the last 10 years and talk about it and that sort of thing.

The wineries that are providing that kind of content seem to get more engagement and more traction in social media, whether those have been converted to a sale or converted to people visiting seller door or selecting that wine when out dining in a restaurant and so on. I’m not 100% sure, it’s hard to measure that one but you definitely see higher engagement and social media is more so about friending, it’s about loyalty, it’s about conversation, it’s about getting feedback. It’s about all those types of things and social media is not a direct sales mechanism. You can’t really say okay I want, here’s this [Inaudible 00:12:35].

I’m sure everybody’s seen those spamming through Facebook at the moment. They’re like 100, I’ll get it for a 100 bucks or whatever that might be and I’m not sure I know anyone who’s taken up that offer yet but using Facebook as a tool out there, it’s not welcome to a whole lot of users, because in essence, as a brand you’re treading on their turf and you need to be able to be more respectful about it and engage them in a way that they’ll want to come and talk to you. Show us your, the sellers, show us the vineyards or do profiles on the wine maker and this is the lovely, or Lisa Sedoro or whatever it might be but that’s how you kind out, I would say that providing content valuable content is just about providing quality and it might be the production value of your video, there’s particularly artistic or particularly good or it might just be that you’re actually putting out interesting content, or content of interest to your targets, target markets and demographics and whatnot.

Nick: With that sort of stuff you mentioned just now, sounds like there’s a bit of an investment that’s kind of required, like I think is that, is that the idea of setting yourself apart from … [cross-talk 00:14:01]

Rubina: Yeah, absolutely. Exactly right. That would be a way that I’d say it, especially if you’re looking at doing video and things like that and video can be a costly exercise. So, there aren’t that many people who take it on, so if you are really trying to make an impact then video is a great way of doing it and it’s just a really, really engaging way of showing people what’s happening. Photo’s good, but video is better. It’s moving picture, there’s sound, there’s plenty of opportunity there to be engaged. Of course, your video should be, to be engaging of course, it has to contain something of interest or something different, and not too long, either. Attention spans are getting shorter and shorter on the internet, so certainly not longer than, my recommendation will be not much longer than 5 minutes and if you’re going for longer than 5, it has to be done like, not comprises quality, it has to be compelling.

Nick: I’m thinking of the [Inaudible 00:15:05] 2012, which was half an hour [Inaudible 00:15:13]. It was very compelling.

Rubina: So, if you’ve compelling content, by all means go on and on and on. That’s the other thing too, you need to consider what channel you want to put it on. Do you want to put, do you want a YouTube channel? Do you want [Inaudible 00:15:24] channel and there’s another pros and cons to have there, right there or both. If you can’t make up your mind, both is fine but I think that given different types of viewers, YouTube is where everybody is. Like it’s, they’re still getting [Inaudible 00:15:44] so yeah, it’s pretty, as far as I know but then it appears to be more on the creative side and artistic sort of endeavors and that sort of thing, things would be popping up on [Inaudible 00:16:03] more and more rather than YouTube. So, as a result I think if you’re really trying to set this up, then [Inaudible 00:16:15] is a pretty good tool and if you’ve got good, strong social networking sites like Facebook and Twitter, where you’ve already invested the time and built the relationships with your consumers, then pushing people to [Inaudible 00:16:24] is not going to be difficult.

If you don’t have those things however, then maybe you need to consider just being somewhere big like YouTube so that you can, you’re searchable and try a little [Inaudible 00:16:37] somewhere along the line, I’m sure.

Nick: I’ve been hearing this idea a little bit more recently as well, of not spending, not so much building stuff on Facebook, trying to sort of direct it, roll back to a venue that you own, such as your website. Is that something that you usually recommend?

Rubina: I would say so. I think that, at the end of the day, you don’t own any of your content that you throw up on Facebook or anything can get shared on Facebook, Twitter or that kind of thing, like it’s all out quite publicly and all that sort of thing and with Twitter and with Facebook of course, there is a bit there and you know. It’s still really important to have your own base, your own website and whether you’ve got hosting, it doesn’t matter if it’s [Inaudible 00:17:33] but your website. I think though that it depends what your website is too.

If your website is just to say this is who we are, this is what we do, contact us that type of thing, then I think that driving some traffic to it is good because obviously you’re getting exposure but if you’re finding that you’re getting huge engagement on Twitter for example, say you’re an accounting firm or something, its text time right now. So you’re getting hundreds of questions on Twitter, that’s going to be a lot more valuable to you than, say in trying to make sure that all those 100 people who are asking you questions go to your website. If you help them, they’ll be like, oh that was helpful and then they’ll probably follow up with a phone call and say, can you please do my taxes or something like that. [Inaudible 00:18:20].

Nick: It would probably be a quicker response time on Twitter as well.

It is, it can be, very much so, but it just depends. If your site on the other hand though is not informative and rather is like a point of sales, a sales point where you’ve got a shop and you’re selling scarves or something that are handmade in Dubai or or something like that, then obviously you want people to go to your site, because that’s your shop front, so you’ll be wanting to drive traffic back to the site, so, the people buy in to those gifts and all that sort of thing.

So, in that case, it’s really important to make sure that the hits on the website are increasing and people spend time and that people then commit to the images. So, I think it really just depends on what kind of site do you have, whether how much you should be pushing it. If you, I think a great way around it is that if you have a blog component on your website, which I think a lot of companies are starting to do now, is that you are pushing people back to the site whenever you’ve written a blog or someone in the company has written a blog, whether it’s a post about what happened today in the office or this is the top ten things you needs, when lodging a tax return, it’s an accounting firm or something or make it easy for yourself, give it to us and we’ll do it if you bring us these ten things or whatever.

So I think there’s a lot of room for pushing traffic back towards the site and engagement back towards the website that you want obviously by sort of incorporating blogs and things like that. And the other thing of course is to be using sharing buttons on your websites which seems like a fairly obvious one, but it’s worth mentioning and putting a lot of those like buttons, tweet buttons, plus one for Google, and then you’ve also got like read it, you’ve got delicious, you’ve got stumbled on, you’ve got – I can’t think of all the rest now but there are tons and tons of websites where you share. The big ones we always think of in general as well and there are plenty of ways to share. So, allowing others to share your content as they find it is a great way of trying to get traffic back to your site as well and using social media, in which case you’d then be kind of capitalizing on the social media networks to somebody else rather than just what you’ve got as well.

I think that’s something important to consider too, is that you don’t necessarily have to build your own massive network on social media sites. Facebook is a little bit more difficult and you really do need to invest into having a community around your brand but on Twitter or something like that, there are plenty of established communities already. So, you are able to enter and exit conversations with the nature of the platform and that sort of thing. So, it can be something to consider, taking your branch to a community that exists and seeing if it works or not.

Nick: Yep. I’m just going to mention that point you just made about the sharing buttons on a website. It’s something that I see a little bit with clients and other people is that I think they misunderstand or get confused between like buttons for the page, and like buttons like buttons on someone’s Facebook page or website and actually liking on the page itself. Can you just explain the difference?

Rubina: Yeah. So you’ve got a couple of options when it comes to this. Of course, you’ve got the Facebook plug-in boxes and Twitter plug-in boxes as well and this is where you’ve got the feed and all that sort of thing coming down, or it might have you and 250 people like this and then they’ll have photos of the people who do like it. So, that’s a like, to like the Facebook page. So, there’s a link there that you can click and if you’re signed in to Facebook from another tab or if you were previously, you’d be able to like it and it would just go straight through. Twitter is very much the same, we’ve got a follow button there.

When it comes to actually having a blog article for example and you’ve got those sharing buttons at the bottom, what you’re doing is you’re actually sharing that particular link to your own personal Facebook networks rather than liking the page. The Facebook page, the official Facebook page for the company, say company X, you’re not liking that company X, X’s Facebook page. What you’re actually doing is you’re liking that link or you’re tweeting that link and sharing the link and that content with your social media, personal social media networks. So, it might be your Facebook friends, or it might be your Twitter followers or it might be your LinkedIn connections. So, depending on which platform you go with of course.

Nick: Yeah, and those two things are completely separate?

Rubina: They are completely separate and I could see they do look similar, but they are very much very, very similar.

Nick: And do you recommend that people on their own websites would have both?

Rubina: Yes, I would say so. I think that the best idea is to, if you can put in your headers or in your footers, headers ideally because when we flip the page we want things above the fold so that you’ve got your Facebook and Twitter icons there so that people can access that page whenever. So it doesn’t matter if I’ve arrived in the Home Page and moved to the Content Page and then I’ve gone to the Blog Section. It doesn’t matter where I am on the site, if I want to go find the Facebook page, I just click on there or send to open a new tab or whatever that might be. So, that way, you’ll always have it easy for people to access, instead of trying to find it under the contact us page rather than clicking away and then of course, the sharing buttons. I have seen it go a little bit crazy on some sites, where they put it on every single page. I think that you’re better off with your sharing buttons being selective where you put them and maybe putting them just where you’ve got the blog section perhaps, because it’s going to be most up to date, recent sort of stuff anyway.

Nick: Or perhaps not, so your contact page bring no [Inaudible 00:24:44].

Rubina: No, well there’s nothing really to like about it. It’s not really, I mean shareability I think is a fault word people make up now but why would you want to share contact details to somebody else? I’d rather share for example, I’m sure there are on Web Marketing Adelaide website, there’s a contact section and there’s also the podcast section, so I’d want to share what’s on the podcast. The contact details will better be good if someone needs to contact you but I don’t know why you want to share your contact details [cross-talk 00:25:19] Exactly but the content is where you get the kind of recognition.

Nick: Well now let’s move on to the next section which is Social Media Marketing Tafe course, which you teach. You’ve got one coming up?

Rubina: Yeah, at the end of July, we’ve got one coming up. That’ll be good for all and we limit the class to about 20 participants at most. It’s a two day intensive, we have 9 sessions. It’s pretty [Inaudible 00:25:53]. Anyone can come in to the course, if you know things about social media and apps and web marketing then yes, you’re more than absolutely more than welcome. If you’re someone who doesn’t even know what the Facebook is or you still call it The Facebook or whatever it might be, we can accommodate that too.

The course essentially runs through from zero to hero is probably an over statement, but we definitely start beginning to define what social media is. We look at different platforms, and why some platforms might be more suited to a business than others. We also run through social media case studies and looking at other businesses that are successful or not so successful and why that might be the case or not. So, we have a quick walk through about that kind of stuff. We look at metrics and measurement, we look at kind of insights that you can get from Facebook and Twitter and that sort of thing.

We also look at using third-party apps to manage your social media presence if you are looking at larger brands, [Inaudible 00:27:06] sweep or might be radiant 6, or anything that comes out of sales force and it’s usually pretty good and so, you’ve got all those other areas that we look at and we also look at strategy. You can say it’s a pretty long two days. We have a quick look at strategy and it’s more, nothing much about completing a strategy but at least providing the map I guess of how they might control it with the social media strategy, especially pertaining to which particular platforms, what kind of things they can do and certain budget and all that sort of things, at least give them a little bit of direction.

We kind of round off with policy and look at appropriate and acceptable online behavior, no bullying that sort of thing, how do you manage when people are arming on your brand, if they’re controlling your brand or if they have a complaint, how do you deal with that? And what can you do? You know, we look at how you would write guidelines and that sort of thing. Policy, we also look at policy for people who are working within the business but not in the marketing department perhaps, if you’ve got a larger organization and what kind of social media policy you need to put in place, whether it’s a case of people need to, we would prefer that you do identify yourself as working for X company or we don’t want you to identify yourself as working for X company. That kind of thing make it clear to people what is acceptable and what is not, also outlining social media use at work.

I think that the government, State Government actually of South Australia, they release some through, I think it’s department families and health and communities and whatnot. They released a video which we actually run through because I think it’s a great example of what your social media policy should cover, which is a copyright, defamation and lots of stuff as well as a social media use. But the way they likened it, these days where more and more were taking our home to work, like our lives at home to work, and we’re taking home work at home with us, it’s becoming an increasing sort of trend. So, they likened using social media at work to using a telephone, in moderation. If something happens and you need to make a phone call, then you do so, whatever it might be, you do so. So, social media is kind of the same, sort of have that similar sort of idea there. I’m not sure if that’s all good to say that the departments can conjecture on the issue certainly on Twitter, as I was discussing yesterday.

But yeah, there is all sorts of, we look at policy and all that sorts of things and the different sizes of it that sort of thing as well. Yeah, it’s definitely a marketing bend , with this short course, however, we had a recruiter came in and did it, she’s with one of the HR firms here in Adelaide and we looked at other ways that social media will be useful to her a well, because obviously marketing would be good, but also as far as recruitment goes, LinkedIn is an amazing resource for anyone working in the resources over at so yes we looked at that as well. We tend to look at the options and all the uses of social media potentially and what it has for the business beyond marketing as well.

Nick: So you sort of tailored it to some degree for …

Rubina: Absolutely, the first thing that we do, when everyone arrives, is sign in, of course and we go around the room because they come from everywhere. We’ve had people even from manufacturing, from the supermarkets industry. We’ve had people come through from Education Centers, libraries. We’ve had people come through from butchers and things like that, like cattle companies and things like that. We’ve had people come through from electronics, engineering firms, all sorts, really. It’s something you don’t even think of and some of them were quite challenging for me because a lot of them don’t have any competitors who are currently in the space of social, so those were some interesting times. I look forward to those kind of challenges.

Nick: Challenges, yep. So you’ve got one coming up at the end of this month and if people miss that, how often do you …

Rubina: We generally tend to hold these social media sessions, short courses every couple of months or so. So far, I think this is the 6th course that we’re running. So, it tends to be every 10 months or so, but if demand is increasing for it then obviously we’ll run them more often.

Nick: Well I’ll put a link and the details up in the show notes on our website. And people will find information through that. Just moving on to our last discussion topic, the MICON Mob Project.

Rubina: Yeah, so this is something that I’ve been pushing as a member of the marketing committee this year. Last year, at marketing week, there were a few avid tweeters and this is kind of a similar story that’s seen from other festivals and lots of things in that we were tweeting the event but there wasn’t an official presence on Twitter. There was just mainly a couple of us who were there every day because we were always there in a blogging capacity last year, as the official blogger for marketing week. So, I tweeted when I wasn’t concentrating on understanding the bigger thing. It’s amazing if you have some way to blog, and some way to tweet, you’re listening for different things. Obviously when you’re blogging you’re listening for the whole overall, whereas with a tweet you’re listening for the grab that you can actually put in a 140 characters or less.

So, we kind of did that media training last year and the blogging was very successful. So we’re looking this year at increasing the pool. We’re inviting, we have 20 positions for students currently studying marketing, advertising or design, communications, media, journalism, film, any of those areas, or recent graduates in that area of course, to come along to the Marketing Ideas Conference with MICON which will be held in the last week of August , 28th of August at the Adelaide Festival Center this year. So we’re inviting them to join us, those 20 slots in exchange for a seat in selected sessions at MICON. They will be expected to tweet, to blog, or they might even take an Instagram photo, Facebook to share their experience across the different social media outlets.

We’d love to see some podcasts too, but this is our first year, so we’ll try it and see how it goes. I think podcast would be a [Inaudible 00:34:35] and if we can move towards video, that would be even better. So, that’s something that we’re looking towards. The applications are currently [Inaudible 00:34:44] for the marketing ideas conference mope, the macron mope and there are 20 positions, maximum of 20 places that we’ll be offering this year, and we’ll kind see how it pans out. It’s a very short application process, you basically need to tell us your name, that’s so cool, what you’re studying or what you just studied, where you’re studying or where you just studied and reference of course, a referee just to verify you’re a real person and not a bot and all that kind of thing, just to check you out and also what kind of social micro media it is you’re currently involved in and there’s a short 100 word answer that we would like to hear from these prospective applicants, is which of the speakers in the MICON lineup are they looking forward most to see and why is that?

So it’s a fairly short application process, because I realized that most students don’t have time for it as is at the moment, so we’re really looking forward to seeing those projects and we’ve got the support from the universities as well so it’s really good.

Nick: Sounds interesting. Again, I’ll have some links up for that up in the show notes. That’s all I had to ask you today. Is there anything else you wanted to add or…?

Rubina: No I think we’ve covered a fair bit tonight.

Nick: Yeah, well thanks very much and for lending your time generously and if anyone wants to find out anything more about you and sort of your service and what you do, where can they find you?

Rubina: The best place is Twitter. That’s where I respond quickly. I’m @rubinacarlson and I’m sure Nick will have the links in the notes. I’m also on LinkedIn.

Nick: Great. Well thanks for coming on the show.

Rubina: No worries. Thank you.

Nick: I hope you enjoyed that interview with Rubina. As I said that second half will be coming out in Episode 3 in a couple of weeks, and that pretty much brings us to the end of episode 1 of the Podcast. You can find all the links we mentioned in the interview there to Rubina’sTafe Course and to the MICON mob project in the show notes of this episode and they are at our website at You can leave a comment underneath the episode and I’d love to hear your feedback on the topic. So, the quality of the audio, yes I know the background noise is a bit annoying, but hopefully we’ll improve that in the future episodes, in the future interviews.

There’s also a topic index on the website there. You can see that by looking in the menu on the top and if you have any ideas or questions for topics you’d like us to discuss in the show, then it would be great if you could suggest them in the comments underneath on that page there. See you next time.